Talk:Crown of Aragon

Aragon Crown and Kingdom of Aragon

The Kingdom of Aragon was the same size as the actual administrative territory of Aragon, with its most important city was Zaragoza.

The Aragon Crown included all the territories mentioned in the article, and had several important cities (each one claiming to be the centre of the Crown) but there was no official capital. Barcelona is near the geographical center of it and an important city.

I have changed several things in the article to attempt to make clear the differences between "Kingdom" and "Crown". --Enric Naval 15:29, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Catalan counts and Kings of Aragon

"The real centre of this kingdom was Barcelona, since it was the Catalan counts that inherited the Aragonese Crown and not the other way around." That's plain false. The Crown was inherited by the son of a Catalan count and a Aragonese Queen. For more info, see Petronila of Aragon and Ramon_Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona, parents of Alfonso II of Aragon. I don't understand what is "the other way around". --Enric Naval 15:03, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The point having been, presumably, that the male line came through the Catalan counts, not through Petronila. I think this should be clarified and restored. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:33, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

This is the text: The union of the two territories of Catalonia and Aragon was caused by the marriage of Ramon Berenguer IV and Petronila of Aragon. This merged the County of Barcelona with the Kingdom of Aragon under the name of "Crown of Aragon". Their son, Alfonso II, inherited both titles. What clarifications need to be done? Maybe indicating that Berenguer was Count of Barcelona and Petronila was Queen of Aragon? Alfonso II inherited both titles at the same time, he wasn't a catalan count inheriting a the aragonese kingdom. Are you implying that the Count of Barcelona title was more important because it was held by a male? --Enric Naval 19:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I could be mistaken, and I can't claim specific expertise, but I think that at that time in Western Europe the male line would almost universally have been thought of as the "main" line of descent. But that is probably not particularly important, and I don't care if it's dropped; I didn't put it there, for what it's worth.

I do think, however, that it is pretty clear that, in this empire without a fixed capital, the Catalan areas (in the broad sense, including Valencia and the Balearics) were generally more dominant than Aragon. The Aragonese Empire was a major maritime power, but not much of a power on land. The important cities were the ports, and those were all in Catalan-speaking regions. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:40, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Valencia is not a Catalonian area, it was conquered by Aragonese noblemen, NOT Catalonian and repoblated by Aragonese too, like well known families as Borja (later Borgia). Valencia was a kingdom, Catalonia NEVER was a kingdom, Valencia was always indepedent from Catalonian counties. As Matrimonial Agreements between queen Petronila I and count Ramon Berenguer IV said (you only have to read them)the main line was agreed to be FEMININE in this special affair, so Count Ramon Berenguer IV was Prince of Aragon, but not king. He relinquished his lienage by common consent and his lineage was wiped out in 1150. Ramon Berenguer IV adopted a superior lineage but relinquished his own. "Count of Barcelona" became only a title used by the King of Aragon as Marquis of Tortosa or Lord of Montepelier. The Royal House held the name of Aragon as its principal title . Barcelona was not the center of the Crown, King of Aragon court was travelling. Kings of Aragon were crowned in Zaragoza for example and some of them lived in Valencia. Catalonia was not the heart of the crown, Crown of Aragon had many hearts because of its special political configuration. Catalonia was a part of the crown, not the crown itself. Catalonian nacionalism is trying to change history but history is history in spite of politics.

Irati (interspersed 27 March 2005)

Catalan-speaking region doesn't equal neither catalan political influence nor administrative territory of Catalonia. Some of those seaports were in Valencia and Majorca, which had its own separate laws and administration. --Enric Naval 15:34, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Role of Barcelona in Aragon Crown

Barcelona was certainly a most important city, specially since Aragon kings were forced to stop expanding in the Peninsule and start expanding in the Mediterranean, with Barcelona's port being very near to Mallorca's port, and being a preferred embarking place for both catalan and aragonese troops, but it was not the "real centre", as there wasn't such a thing, and no document of that epoch talks about Aragon Crown having a "capital" or a "central city". Please cite official documents of that epoch before changing this. --Enric Naval 15:03, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree it wasn't "the center" -- there was none -- but I think your edit is even less appropriate (and you don't cite any documents yourself, so you really don't have any right to demand that others produce documentation if they want to revert your newly added paragraph). I think you are quite wrong on the dominance of Valencia. Yes, once the crowns of Aragon and Castile were joined Valencia became the more important, but up to that time I think it is clear that Barcelona was the more important port and the more important city.

I'm not going to revert this myself, since I don't claim to be expert, just clueful, but I would encourage others who know Catalan history better than I do to comment and possibly revert or edit. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:37, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

About the documents, you're right, but because of the wrong reasons :) Since it is never mentioned anywhere that there was no capital, I can't possibly produce any document.... I'll try to be more careful from now on.

By "being bigger" I meant "having more population", I should edit that, because it's confusing.

I have seen times when both Barcelona and Valencia were claimed to be the most importants seaports and times when only Barcelona was mentioned. Since I have no economical data to make an objective comparison, you must probably be correct. Want me to edit that myself? --Enric Naval 20:16, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sure, go for it. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:34, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Done --Enric Naval 15:25, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Did this exist in 1137? Re: Catalunya articles

According to articles in multiple languages on the political entity of Catalonia (Catalunya), the Crown of Aragon was involved in the formation of Barcelona and Catalonia in the year 1137, which does appear in cornerstones of buildings such as cathedrals. This article says the Crown of Aragon was not established in the year 1137 CE.

I am not a historian, just a linguist and physician. Help or clarification would be appreciated. (I'm also not Spanish.) DrDavidWebb (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what is the problematic point. This page states that The Crown of Aragon originated in 1137. --Jotamar (talk) 16:34, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

It is called the Catalan-Aragonese crown.

The crown is formed by the kingdom of Aragon and the county of Barcelona, ​​the latter has all the power. The 4 sticks or bars are from the house of Barcelona, ​​NOT from the house of Aragon. They were the coat of arms of Ramon Berenguer IV, his son adopted that flag for his crown. It is a mistake to call the Aragonese crown when all power was held by the principality of Catalonia, proof of this is that the language that has endured in all those territories is Catalan. 139.47.117.229 (talk) 12:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)